可汗学院掌门人：打造网上免费哈佛

Student debt is nearing a record $1 trillion in the U.S. Jobless law school grads are suing their alma maters for false advertising. Needless to say, the cost of higher education -- not to mention the return on the investment -- has become a sore spot for many.

With an election on the horizon, the Obama Administration has not been deaf to the grumbling. The president addressed the topic in his State of the Union, and his administration has since launched a campaign to stem the rise in college tuition by tying a school's federal aid prospects to its affordability. Vice President Joe Biden, Secretary of Education Arne Duncan, and Senator John Kerry were dispatched to university campuses earlier this week to tout the plan. In all the tut-tut over college affordability, there been some nostalgia for the time when some world-class, public universities -- The City University of New York and The University of California, for example -- didn't charge any tuition for many of its students.

Salman Khan's Khan Academy -- a free, nonprofit education site with more than 2,800 video lessons and financial backing from the likes of Google (GOOG) and the Gates Foundation -- has picked up this mantle, at least in spirit. Fortune caught up with Khan a few months ago while he was just about to speak at the Future of State Universities Conference in Dallas. Here is an edited transcript of the conversation.

Fortune: Judging from the counter on your site, it looks like Khan Academy is not too far away from delivering its 120-millionth lesson. What has surprised you the most about all those users?

Sal Khan: I've been surprised at how motivated a lot of people are that you wouldn't traditionally think would be that kind of a motivated student. They were the kid who failed out of college, failed out of high school, hated academics.

I gave a talk last week to a bunch of chief learning officers from companies and one woman came by and said, "My husband hated school. He's dyslexic. He was a fireman and he just started watching the videos and he got really into it. He got really into math, really into physics. Went back to college, got a math degree and a physics degree, a master's in physics, and is now teaching physics."

And so, it's this reality that there are people like that out there that have completely gotten frustrated and disengaged with the traditional model that tends to judge you and label you in very early stages and really doesn't let you learn at your own pace.

What would you say are the limitations of what you are offering at Khan Academy?

The main limitation is we're not granting people formal credentials. We get a lot of letters from people, they're not going to class anymore. And they're just showing up to take an exam to get a credential. And we all know that happens. We did a little bit of that ourselves in college.

At the end of the day, the most that we can do is teach and learn. We can give someone rewards and badges to make them feel good, but they can't put that on their resumes just yet.

Speaking of resumes and credentials, it seems like more people are getting degrees, but they say less and less about how well someone will perform on the job. What's your take?

It's a bit of a statement on the existing system that us or Google or Facebook have to have such a rigorous interview process because we really don't know what a 4.0 in computer science means any more. I think the conversation has to go beyond getting more people to major in electrical engineering or computer science. The conversation is how do we equip people so that they can actually perform well in that type of environment?

How would you pull that off?

Right now, the priority in a four-year institution is to learn things for exams and in your spare time and your summers you might be able to do an internship. I actually think that should be flipped around. I think the focus should be doing internships. An internship 30 years ago was working the mailroom. An internship today at Google is optimizing an algorithm that researchers at universities don't even have access to. I would say the interns that we had this past summer were doing far more rigorous theory than they would do in their coursework. So when I say internship, it's not getting coffee for the boss or stocking mail.

Many universities, especially public ones, are dealing with painful cuts in government funding and bracing for the possibility of more to come. How do you think that affects what you are trying to do at Khan Academy?

I'd like to see a reality where if someone wants to work when they turn 18 to help support their family and they learn at their own pace on something like the Khan Academy or other things, that they can just on their own get a bunch of the credits they need just by testing out of things. And maybe they have to show up on campus for a semester of labs or something. You're getting a person like that to the end point that they need to get to, in a way that's actually good for everybody.

Then again, so many people land jobs in a way that has very little to do with academic merit. It has to do with the people that they meet while they were at school.

I agree with that. I think the strongest argument there is business school. I think the one thing business school does very well is that they kind of understand that that's what they are about. But I think society has recognized that business school is an optional thing. What you are describing is a powerful tool, just as going to a fancy prep school -- going to Andover or Exeter -- is great. But that's not something that we necessarily have to say everyone has to have access to….

Is the idea to keep Khan Academy free going forward?

Yes. It is core to our mission in that the learning part of Khan Academy will always be free. The incremental cost for us to teach an incremental student is zero or close to zero. So it's our mission that we shouldn't put a gate there.

When I thought about the two home run outcomes as a for-profit or as a not-for-profit, as a for-profit, a home run outcome for Khan Academy is we reach a bunch of users, we capture a bunch of revenue, maybe we get acquired or we have some type of an exit, an IPO, and Sal will be rich. That's not bad, not a bad thing. But the home run as a not-for-profit institution is just maybe we can be this new breed of institution that is kind of like a Stanford or MIT, but the brand isn't built purely on its selectivity. The brand is based on its quality of what it's delivering and it can reach millions, or maybe one day billions, of students and maybe be around for hundreds of years.

在美国，学生贷款债务已接近一万亿美元之巨的历史记录。毕业即失业的法学院毕业生们正在以虚假宣传罪名起诉他们的母校。毋庸置疑，高等教育的高昂成本（更别提投资回报了）已经成为很多人心头的痛。

大选在即，奥巴马政府也不敢对这些怨言充耳不闻。奥巴马总统在国情咨文中谈到了这个话题，政府随后采取了相应举措来遏制大学学费的上涨。具体的做法是将学校获得联邦援助的可能性与学生能否负担得起该校的学费相挂钩。本月早些时候，副总统乔•拜登、教育部长（Secretary of Education）阿恩•邓肯和参议员约翰•克里分别前往一些大学校宣传这一举措。很多人在对难以承受的大学学费表示不满的同时，开始怀念过去那些世界一流的公立院校的做法，这些公立院校对很多学生免收学费，比如纽约城市大学（The City University of New York）和加利福尼亚大学（The University of California）。

萨尔•可汗的可汗学院（Khan Academy）是一家免费的、非盈利性教育网站，拥有超过2,800个视频课程，并得到了来自谷歌（Google）和盖茨基金（Gates Foundation）的资金支持。至少在精神层面上来看，它继承了免费教育这一传统。数月前，萨尔•可汗准备在达拉斯举办的州立大学未来论坛（the Future of State Universities Conference）上发表讲话之前，《财富》杂志（Fortune）借机对他进行了专访。整理后的对话记录如下。

财富：您网站上的计数器显示，可汗学院为用户提供课程的次数不久将达到1.2亿次。这些用户有哪些地方最让您感到惊讶？

萨尔•可汗：让我惊讶的是，很多人的学习积极性非常高。一般来说，人们可能不会觉得这些人会是积极好学的学生。因为他们都是些曾经被中学、大学开除的学生。他们曾经很讨厌学习。

上周我与来自几家企业的首席学习官座谈。一位女士走过来对我说：“我丈夫过去非常痛恨学校。他有阅读障碍。他以前是一位消防员。但自从开始接触视频课程，他就喜欢上了学习，尤其是数学和物理。后来他重新进入了大学，并获得了数学和物理学的学位，还获得了物理学硕士学位，现在他是一名物理教师。”

这就是活生生的现实。生活中有很多这样的人，他们在传统教育模式下会倍感挫败和疏。，因为传统教育模式总是过早地对人的学习能力下结论，给人贴上标签，不允许学生按照自己的进度展开学习。

您认为可汗学院提供的课程服务有何局限性？

主要的局限在于，我们不能为学习者授予正式的学位证书。我们收到了很多人的来信，说他们不会再去课堂上课。他们去参加学校考试也只是为了拿到学位证书。我们很清楚这种情况。因为我们自己在大学里也是这样。

我们所能做的说到底只是教与学。我们可以给予学生奖励和徽章，但这些只能让他们感到光荣，却不能放到简历中去。

说到简历和证书，现在拥有学位的人越来越多了，但有种看法认为，这些东西已经越来越无法代表人们在工作岗位上的表现。您是怎么看的？

对于现有的教育体系，确实存在这种情况。不论是我们，还是谷歌（Google）或Facebook，都不得不实行严格的招聘流程。因为我们并不清楚计算机科学课程拿到4.0的成绩到底能够说明什么问题。我觉得重点不在于培养多少具有电子工程或计算机科学专业背景的人，而在于如何培养学生，确保他们在各自的专业领域内能够拥有出色的表现。

您将如何实现这一点呢？

现在，在四年制大学学习的第一要务就是勤学+备考，然后在课余和暑假期间实习。我认为应该反过来，把重点放在实习上。30年前，一份实习生工作可能只是在收发室里分发邮件；而现在，谷歌的实习生要对算法进行优化，甚至连大学里的学者们至都没有接触过这样工作。今年暑假期间，我们聘用的实习生所做的工作涉及到的理论要比他们的课程作业精确严谨得多。 因此，我所说的实习生，并不是给老板冲冲咖啡、收收邮件这么简单。

很多大学、尤其是公立大学，都在应对政府资金锐减带来的冲击，同时还得做好准备，应对未来进一步的经费削减。您认为这会对可汗学院带来什么影响？如果有人希望一满18岁就参加工作，帮助供养家庭，他们可以通过可汗学院或其他途径，按照自己的进度安排学习，并借助相关测试，通过自己的努力获得必要的学分。他们也有可能必须到学校实验室呆上一个学期。我们这类学习机构就能满足这样的学习者。这种模式对所有人来说都是好事，也是我十分乐见的情景。话说回来，很多人最终从事的工作跟他们的学西成绩没有多大关系，而是跟他们在学校认识的人有关系。

我同意这一点。我认为最有力的证明就是商学院。我觉得，商学院有一点做得非常好。他们很清楚自己的定位。但人们也明白，商学院不是非上不可。它是一个强大的工具，正如去念一所昂贵的预备学校，比如安多弗（Andover）或者埃克赛特（Exeter），这很好。但是，我们必须承认，并不是每个人都能有这种机会。

您会一直坚持可汗学院的免费教育理念吗？

是的。这是我们使命的核心，可汗学院的学习课程将永远免费。我们多教一个学生的增量成本对我们来说是零或者近乎于零。所以我们不会为学习设置费用门槛，这是我们的使命所在。

我分别思考过可汗学院作为盈利机构或者非盈利机构的最好结局。作为盈利机构的话，可汗学院的最好结果是，我们拥有一定数量的用户，获得丰厚收益，可能会被收购或者找到出路，进行首次公开募股。那么我就可能成为大富翁。这当然不错。但作为非营利机构，我们希望成为新一代教育机构里的斯坦福（Stanford）或者麻省理工学院（MIT），但我们的品牌并不是完全建立在对生源的苛刻要求。我们的品牌是建立在提供高质量课程资源的基础之上。我们希望未来的用户数量能达到百万、千万，甚至几十亿，从而打造一个百年教育品牌。